Shaft Angle at Impact II
November 7th, 2010 | 
Author: Read the original post HERE
After more research and some great input from several excellent instructors I have quite a bit to add to the previous post. There are even a few additional golfers I have found to add to the “zero” club (no change in handle position from address to impact) – there has been so much fantastic input that I just had to share it.
Jonathan Yarwood makes a great point in identifying the difference between irons and the driver:
I think that there has to be a raise of the shaft with a driver due to the nature of the sweeping hit off a tee. However, if you look at players like Pricey, the driver became their nemesis, as they got the plane too low to get it flying with the new equipment. Sergio struggles to flight the driver too. Trevino too at times. With a driver, some ’swing and freewheeling’ is required through the hit allowing the club to raise somewhat.
Joe Durant
Mark Costaregni, my fellow teacher at Atlantic Golf Club in NY, and senior teacher with Jim McLean at Doral says:
I think you are spot on with this, we have studied shaft plane at address vs. impact and only a few return the handle on plane!!! Fulton Allem also returns it on plane. I remember some footage of Sergio actually UNDER with the handle!!! I believe this is a benchmark for pure greatness in striking. Also it seems the real power hitters tend to get the handle up at impact because of the leverage factor.
Thanks for the addition of Fulton Allem to the list Mark. Fulty has always been a fantastic ball striker and was a prolific winner in South Africa. At Doral they have a fantastic resource in that the best players in the world come to them every year and that leads to a superb bank of swings to analyze and evaluate. I would have to agree with you when you say “pure greatness in striking”.
There were multiple questions regarding shaft droop or bowing and even some skepticism about whether any golfer could achieve the “zero” impact position – however the pictures don’t lie. Here is what I have noticed:
- The average shaft angle with a 7 iron at address is around 54 degrees; the average lie angle of a 7 iron is 63 degrees. That allows for 9 degrees of droop/bow in the shaft at impact even with the handle returning to the exact same position at impact – as a result golfers DO NOT need to lift/raise the handle in order to account for the curvature of the shaft.
Vijay Singh
- I have found that the golfers who get the handle in the “zero” position (zero degrees of change from address to impact) through the hit tend to have what appears to be less droop/bow in their shaft. This is due to the fact that their hands/arms swing into the ball on a lower (more shallow) plane that more closely matches the plane the clubhead travels on. The lower the arm plane coming into impact, the less difference there is between the arm and clubhead plane and thus less droop/bow in the shaft.
- Thus, the higher the hands are positioned through impact the more the shaft tends to curve downward.
- That being said, if you can return the handle to its address position, you should not need to flatten your irons (unless they are too upright already!) due to the fact that the shaft will droop less.
The next time you are playing a “well worn” golf course take a look at the divot patterns on the range or a shortish par three. Keeping in mind that most golfers are right handers, you’ll see most of the divots are in the shape of a trapezoid. This is due to high hands and excessive droop in the shaft getting the toe further into the ground than the heel.
Fulton Allem
Here is an excellent drill to illustrate how any golfer can work towards achieving this ultimate impact position. If there ever was a drill that would make you hit it like Hogan, this is it.
Reed Howard, an fine young golfer illustrates how to perfectly execute this drill. Does this look like Ben Hogan or what?
A point to note: the line drawn on the photos of Moe Norman is not the original shaft plane line. The shaft plane line is drawn along the shaft at address. I am not sure what the yellow line in the photos represents, but it does act as a good reference point.
Moe Norman at Address
Moe Norman at Impact
The select list of golfers who belong to the zero club are:
- Moe Norman
- Ben Hogan
- Nick Price
- Lee Trevino
- Vijay Singh
- Joe Durant
- Carl Pettersson
- Sergio Garcia
The golfers who are very close (within two degrees), but not quite there:
- Trevor Immelman
- Lucas Glover
- DJ Trahan
- Boo Weekley
- Paula Creamer
- Sean O’Hair
All very good ball strikers in their own right!
Carl Pettersson
I have only ever personally witnessed two golfers “naturally” return the handle to its original position. They are - Lindsay Renolds and Michael Koulianos. Both superb ball strikers!
Try the drill - strive for zero – and know that if you get close to it you can only get better!
I really believe that if any golfer can work towards getting into a better position (zero!) at impact they can only improve their ball striking and increase the enjoyment they get from the game.
Keep working!
Posted in Commentary, Long Game, Practice, Swing Philosophy | 
Tags: ball striker, ball striking impact, carl pettersson, fulton allem, handle at impact, high hands at impact, hit it like hogan, impact position, irons vs. driver, joe durant, jonathan yarwood, lindsay renolds, mark costaregni, moe norman, shaft bowing at impact, shaft droop, shaft plane line, shallow plane, vijay singh, zero golfer
A few disjointed thoughts…
First, this assumes your setup position is “good” enough to want to return the club to it at impact. We can all think of some golfers who set up with the handle in a position.
Second, what does this measure? It seems to me that the amount the wrists uncock is the primary determinant here. If that’s the case, does uncocking your wrists more than to their neutral or startup position necessarily lead to a decrease in ballstriking?
Third, and I don’t claim to know the ball flight for all of the golfers you’ve mentioned, but it seems like this is a good fit for a bit more of a CP release (swinging left, staying on the plane) than a CF release (arms fleeing the body, swinging out to the right a bit, shaft and clubhead coming off the plane a bit). If that’s the case, then what – CP for ballstriking, CF for power?
Basically, we all know people who set up with the handle in a position that wouldn’t really be ideal for impact. It may not be “ideal” to set up that way, but for whatever reason, it works for them, so they by definition likely won’t want to return to impact on that plane.
Erik,
Thanks as always for your input. The problem as I see it is, even with setting up with the hands too high or too low at address, why is it that almost every single golfer gets the handle above where it started at impact? I think what we can take from this grouping of exceptional ball strikers is that this element may have been integral to their ability to compress a golf ball. And it is my opinion that all golfers could do a better job in actually striking the golf ball. If push came to shove I believe we would all opt to hit it better rather than further. That being said I would have to agree with CP for ballstriking, CF for power.
Sincerely,
Andrew
How about Calvin Peete? He seemed to return his shaft to his address angle better than anyone.
I feel this is very important subject. It has to deal with impact and impact is everything! The best ballstrikers do this. They all return the club to address position. Moe Norman set up on the impact plane (GENIUS). Moe holds the secret to pure impact without having to man-handle the club to “zero” like Vijay. I feel the conventional players who get to zero suffer from the yips because they put so many pounds of pressure on the muscles because the shaft wants to come up and bisect the middle of the back at impact. It’s simple science. The club is moving so fast and has so much leverage that it wants to move upwards to the middle of the back at impact. The only way to get the club at zero from a conventional address position of for the hands to go deeper coming into impact. It feels like your getting super duper flat and shallow coming into the ball … thats the only way I have been able to it from a convention address position. Carl Peterson sets up with high hands so he doesn’t fight contrifigual force. Moe Norman was a god when it came to the setup … Hogan and Vijay get to impact by getting more flatter coming down into the ball with massive hip rotations … very hard on the body resulting it muscle tears .. Joe Durant cant putt … he has to have some muscle tearing from getting to zero at impact so many millions of balls he has hit … cool topic … not sure if gettin to zero will help short game but no question its the secret to hittin the ball pure
AR, Great stuff! In your study did you find golfers who were poor at this were poor ball strikers? Thanks, Greg Thorner
Good question GT. There are numerous very good ball strikers who are not “zeroed” out, but they are never very far off. I had Per Ulrik Johanssen contact me after reading this article and he said the best he ever played was when he just focused on keeping the handle low through the strike. I looked up an old video of him and he was +11 degrees up from where he started! PGA Tour average is +4. I would say yes – if you get much above +8 degrees you are not going to be a good ballstriker.
If the handle needs to come up a little on the driver so that you can hit up on it, I am thinking it might be easier to setup with the club head raised up to the ball at address.
This obviously changes how you address the ball and might take some getting used to having the club hover above the ground, but then you could approach the driver the same as for irons by trying to return the hands to the same position at impact.
What do you think?
This is what I think. Your scientific data collection is seriously flawed. Your DTL views of these players vary by about 56 degrees which will give you horribly false reads. If you don’t understand, look at a line drawn from big toe to big toe. In reality, you should see that the butt end of the club will always always point to thoracic 12 ( with the exception of Moe’s whick will point to thoracic 4). Please stop. You are killing me
Hey there Gary. I normally delete posts like this from rocket scientist, brainiac, golf guru’s like yourself, but your post just has too much appeal. How can I rob people of an opportunity to comprehend your vast knowledge base simply by hitting delete? I think you are very smart and somehow funny at the same time….
BTW – As senior VP of Seacoast National Bank you most likely should not be posting on boards like mine while using your employers email account.
As expected.
So you insult people and their work to see how they might respond….?