Clubs Too Upright, Too Light?
March 30th, 2011 | 
Author: Thanks to reader Chuck for this enlightening article posted by Bradley Hughes from www.bradleyhughesgolf.com:
FLAT LIE ANGLES -
The Reason and Logic Of The Greats
I know from personal experience in a question asked directly to Lee Trevino that he used clubs that were at least 3 degrees flat in lie angle from the old standard.
Doug Sanders also informed me in the interview I recently did with him (on page 2) that he had his clubs flattened down so the toe sat down and the heel would never strike the ground first.
If we look at Ben Hogan’s club that is in USGA Golf House Museum it is close to 6 or 7 degrees flat in lie angle when compared to clubs of the same length and loft of today.
If flat lie angles were the choice of the game’s best ball strikers throughout history then WHY do manufacturers insist on putting upright lie angled clubs in the hands of golfer’s today?
- The upright clubs make the player come steeply into the ball on descent.
- The upright clubs tell the body stall and insist that the hands flip through impact to try and square that upright lie angled club with the ground.
- The upright club straightens the right arm away from the body and increases clubface roll throughout the shot making timing a huge problem.
- Upright lie angles deteriorate the swing by not stressing the importance of swinging the golf club behind and around the body and rotating through impact with the correct body effort and sequence.
Too often we now see golfers throwing the club through impact – pushing the club head off to the right of the target or throwing the clubhead left of the target with their hand roll – flipping the club face over by hand action trying to correct the mistake.
Today’s clubs should all come with a warning label:
“Swing Deterioration And Poor Mechanics Possible By Using This Club”
Add the fact that the shafts are too long and the swingweights and overall club weights are too light and it is little wonder we don’t see ball striking mastery on any level any longer. Remember: Feedback of the club and the swing is necessary for improvement to take place. That’s why golfers are not improving. They don’t know the difference between a good strike or a bad strike of the ball because the permieter weighting and large sweet spots don’t allow such reference. The equipment golfers are using is NOT designed to help them adjust their swing to the correct efficient motion.
Bradley Hughes
Very well said Mr. Hughes. I have an inkling as to why manufactureres insist on making clubs lighter and more upright…… Firstly, the clubs are more upright as it causes the faders, who happen to be the majority of golfers, to reduce the amount of curvature of their shots. Notice I never said anything about improving their swings – the upright lies in fact encourage these golfers to continue swinging the way they always have. And secondly, the light weight leads to more speed which creates a Wow! factor when they first hit the clubs. The lighter the club the faster you can swing it. You also, however, relinquish a measure of control over the clubhead and a feel for the club.
So the slicer who tries his buddies new 7-iron and hits a straight bomb over the green is amazed as he has never hit the ball that straight and that far before – he simply must have a set!
As with most things it comes down to $$$$! Don’t get sucked in and allow yourself to be enticed with new gimmicks. Know your numbers (length and lie) and play something you like the look of and can feel.
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I took my new blades into the local big box golf shop to have them flattened 2* shortly after I purchased them. The guy at the repair area argued with me and told me they were fine. He didn’t look at the face or ask any questions about my game. He actually argued with me over what I wanted done. He finally relented.
My scores immediately dropped and became more consistent.
Great to hear Jerry. Equipment that fits can make a positive difference….
I played a round of golf this past weekend and about 75% of my shots went left I think it was due to my aligement but I wanted it know would the lie of my clubs have anything to do with it as well?
For sure Chris. If the irons are too upright the ball will have a tendency to launch left off the face. Of course there are many additional factors that could cause the ball to veer left, but upright irons are one of the options.
I recently had my irons bent 6 degrees flat of what I had got them, dramatic effect on game, scratch golf now, eben had my hybrid tweaked.
Andrew, I just came across your article on flat lie angles. It was a real eye opener. You also mentioned shorter shafts, but didn’t go into detail. I guess I should phrase my question like this: as a starting point of reference, what specs would you suggest for club length and lie angle for a 7 iron. Let’s also assume the person is 5’10 and 180 lbs, athletic build and ordinary arm length? I have always had an issue with the straightening of my right arm too soon and flipping the club through impact creating a slight chicken wing post impact. I have always played 2* upright and even more recently went to half-inch longer and lightweight steel shafts. It seems that no matter what I do, I just can’t rid myself of that habit. I’m thinking maybe flatter lie and shorter may help. Thanks.
Hi Ed,
It sounds you have the same build as I do – my specs are 37.50″ length and 60.50 degree lie angle for a six iron. It sounds like those would work for you too. The last thing you want is an upright, long and light shaft – that’s a recipe for stand an flip any day! I would recommend a lighter weight steel shaft (95+-grams) with the specs above. Give the club a try before purchasing and please let me know how it goes.
Thanks for reading and please spread the word!
Andrew
What about tall players, especially with long arms?
does it matter how tall you are for how many degrees upright or is it just swing? cause i have changed my swing abit in the last 2-3 months i bent them too 2 degrees up and just now i have been hitting left
More upright will always encourage left or “less slice” for most Stephen! No matter how tall you are….
I would get those clubs back to where you had them if I was you mate!
I agree completely! I am 5’6″ and for years I argued with golf shops about the proper fit for each person’s height, arm length, etc..
I had bought a 4-iron that was supposed to be 3 degrees flat, but it turned out to be around 5 degrees flat (I didn’t know it at the time). When I bought a new set of Ping irons, 2.25 degrees flat, the longer irons I was ok with (not great), but I couldn’t hit the 7-iron for beans. I kept wondering why I could hit the 4-iron so well…
Well, I had my irons flattened another 2 degrees, and the first time I hit the 7-iron it was incredibly smooth and made perfect (if that is attainable…?) contact.
Mystery solved. Flatter lie angles was what I was missing all these years!
I to have just had a bit of a revelation with clubs and lie angles, Ive played on and off for the last 10 years as a hacker and finally had a few lesson with a very good pro about 3 years ago that made everything fall into place regarding my swing so I knew what needed to be done everytime…
I started off playing (insert company name here) GI clubs and sure was fairy happy to hit with them, im quite a decent ball stricker anyway and didnt really look to deep into club types and all the specs as most pro shops near me are far more “quick sale” than giving indepth service..
Long story short I took a punt and bought a used set of Macgregor Muirfield irons when searching a old furniture store for a table although they did then sit in my garage for a year before my interest in equipment really took hold..
The first step was to setup a lie board and get to work,
Next stop was a long drive to a decent fitter and was told I needed my clubs almost 3* flat (I was always told I was standard :-/)
Well the first practice session was totally shocking, not only was I hitting the ball better than I ever have I was also doing it with a club that was ment to be out of bounds to anyway other than a jedi master, the feel at impact was something so pure and the ball flight was awesome..
Now I know what im looking for and doing why anyone would spend big ££$$ on the next big thing in club design is a total joke, These old blades cost me peanuts and im stricking the ball better than ever EVERYTIME!!!!
When I was at the course a few weeks back the guy in the pro shop there looked at my clubs with a smile and said do these belong to midget when he saw the lie angle, I had to smile as when you know something that others dont I didnt even need to explain anything to him…
On a side note I have totally finished using driving mats for practice and only hit off grass now, im lucky to have a massive empty sports field near me that is never used and I now hit about 500-700 balls a week.. This of course is making My handicap tumble plus its free….
Win Win
Andrew,
Your article also mentions that modern swing weights are to light. What would you suggest as a starting swing weight? Or do you know the swing weights of clubs from the days of Hogan?
Hi Phil – I would go with low D or high C at the lightest. Clubs were much heavier back in BH’s day.
Hi Andrew, what an eye opener. My R9 TP’s are 2* upright, Can those be bent to 2* flat ?
Shouldn’t be a problem to do that Gerry….
Thank you for the info….you hit the nail on the head all the way. I am a single digit handicap, 5’2″, female and have fought the too upright situation forever….but, was in denial and kept trying to fix my swing. Finally, I got fed up and had my irons bent until they set straight/flat on the ground. This ended up 7 degrees flat. What a difference. I can actually aim at my target and i have added yardage. Now, I am working on finding a solution for the driver. The 46 in, 61 degree lie angle, soft shaft driver, high lofted definitely doesn’t work for me…..but I am going to find/build something that is better suited to me. Many club fitters lack real knowledge about how to fit people who aren’t average in stature. I feel I have a better inderstanding of what is happening. Thanks again!
Agreed Bonnie! All the best and just shout if you have any questions…
Thank you…I appreciate that. I just had my old ft tour reshafted. The lie is 56.5 about the flattest around, I think. Playing tomorrow so anxious to see how the ft works. Been looking into “clocking ferules(?)”…interesting. Thanks again.
Bonnie
I think I am going to like my reshaft in the FT. I went from a 65 gr Vodoo to 55 gr NV so it feels different but overall -good results. For now I am going to forget the new driver. I am so glad I came across your website. I have confidence that I am going in the right direction with this. For me, the flatter lie is the way to go.
Hi, I like the article,it makes sense. Im a female pro, 6’1″ and got new ap2 3 dg upright nspro shafts a bit lighter than my old Ping clubs. I used these heavier ones when i played a lot. Loved them but they were 3 dg upright as well. Im too steep from the inside, flipping a bit through impact. i hit it long, just a bit inconsistant. my mistake is hitting left of the center face. It is hard to add rotation and get rid of hip thrust as I work on that. After reading this article I want to try to go to standard lie. But Im 6 1, t
standard lie will be too short for me? Ive had longer clubs before, I felt I was loosing control over the swing a bit there. What do you think? Should I go to standard and lengthen the clubs half an inch and work on my swing with that? Thanks, best,Vero
Glad to hear it Bonnie!
All the best,
Andrew
Hi Vero,
I would go with a 37.75″ 6 iron at a 60.50 degree lie angle and keep the lighhter weight NSPro shafts.. This will improve your consistency in my opinion.
All the best,
Andrew
I remember hitting Michael Allen’s irons one time. His setting was 6 degrees flat. I am 6’2” with very long arms and have my irons bent 3 upright due to my natural swing. While hitting his sticks was almost impossible for me, they helped me keep a flat wrist throughout the swing. I could never see myself switching my lie angle but I could certainly use flatter clubs for practice.
Your 1-iron lie angle incorrect. I have them from the USGA.
Cheers!
Jeff
I would recommend it for practice and play Peter – maybe not 6 flat, but flatter than what you have will encourage a better impact position all around!
I’m 5’7 play,g10 pings black lie shots are fading to much ,finger tips to floor 33 inches could I need a more upright lie !
Andrew, I have Titleist 695 MB Irons and they are supposedly bent to 3 Upright. I have read what you are saying and totally believe in it as it makes perfect sense. I had a video review / lesson from an instructor where I live and he said I struggle with my driver and 3 wood consistency because I have a little hip slide and a flip release (trying to save it) rather than the opening of the shoulders like you guys are talking about. When I do hit my driver straight it is 280 – 320. I am not suffering from distance just consistency. Sometimes a little right sometimes a little left. I usually hit them solid though. I believe this is because my clubs are too upright and when I swing I get stuck and have to try and save it with my hands (sometimes I do, sometimes I dont). Would you suggest just bending my clubs back to standard then going 2 flat and molding my swing around that. Im 6’3 215. Driver swing speed of 118-120. Also I like what you were saying about swing weights being too light. I might try to increase mine. Thanks
Hi Brandon – I would encourage any golfer who struggles with blocks and hooks/draws to get irons that are not overly upright. This will not only encourage them to get into a better impact position, but also to curve the ball less. Go with standard lie and then see where you go from there…
All the best,
AR
This is a very interesting article as I have just had some Pings custom fit and 2 degree upright. I had hit standard clubs with right to left flight and they are now going even more left. I have had them double checked and apparantly they are the correct lie. I am very much looking forward to putting your theory to the test.
Just got new Ping G25 irons custom fit reg shaft, +2 and D0 swingweight on 4-9, D2 on PW&SW. I hit the PW&SW great but cannot hit the rest well at all. My old clubs Callaway X-16 were std length, Rifle 5.0 and neutral lie all D2 and hit them well. I feel the swing weight might be the problem and now after reading this the lie may need to be toned down. Any thouhgts?
A two degree change in lie angle can make a big difference Mark! Get one changed back to std. and see how you like it….